SACOT MINUTES OF THE 82nd MEETING HELD ON TUESDAY 14 JANUARY 2003 AT 28 THISTLE STREET, EDINBURGH

Present:
Jeremy Mitchell (Chair)
Chris Griffith
Kenneth Murray
Alastair Robertson
Barry Stevens MBE

George Halford (Secretary)

1. OPENING REMARKS AND APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE

1.1 The Chair opened the 82nd meeting by welcoming members to the first meeting of 2003.

1.2 Apologies had been received from Mark Hagger, Wendy Reynolds and Peter Wilson.

2. MINUTES OF THE 81st MEETING HELD ON 19 NOVEMBER 2002

2.1 These were approved.

3. MATTERS ARISING FROM THE 81st MEETING

· 3.1 Project Allocation

3.1 Kenneth Murray and Barry Stevens both reported communications from Project Managers and the Secretary was asked to check on whether the intervention of Ray Thornton, after the November meeting, had resulted in any contact with Wendy Reynolds.

ACTION (Secretary)

· 3.3 SCC Parliamentary Reception

3.2 The Chair, Secretary, Mark Hagger, Kenneth Murray, Alastair Robertson and Peter Wilson had attended. It was agreed that it had proved a useful event for facilitating networking with other consumer organisations but relatively few MSPs were present so the
opportunity to lobby them on telecommunications issues was very limited. The Chair had written to SCC to express our appreciation for their organisation of this event.

4. REPORTS FROM CHAIR AND MEMBERS

i. Chair's Report

· Goethe Institute Conference 22 November
4.1 The Chair had attended this conference which examined federalism in the EU, Germany and the UK.

· Voice of the Listener and Viewer (VLV) Scotland Forum on the Communications Bill 25 November
4.2 The Chair had participated in this event. Attendance had been limited and the business was largely taken up with the drafting of a letter for VLV Scotland to send to the First Minister.

· Telecoms Ombudsman Service (TOS) Council 26 November, 10 December, 7 January
4.3 The Chair reported good progress with the formal opening for business having occurred on schedule at the start of January. No immediate flood of cases for investigation had occurred, because of the time limits involved, and it was anticipated that the workload would build steadily. Some publicity had been generated by the opening and one additional new member had been admitted - 'Thus' from Scotland. Barry Stevens wished to know whether complaints originating from before 1st January could be registered and the Chair undertook to clarify this point.

ACTION (Chair)

· Telecoms Advisory Panel (TAP) Meeting, 28 November, 11 December
4.4 Both meetings were largely concerned with the Communications Bill with the second also preparing for a following meeting with the chair of OFCOM, Lord Currie.

· VLV Conference 2 December
4.5 The Chair had been a speaker at this conference in London that was also addressed by peers from each of the main political parties. Attendees had been largely consumer representatives and those with an interest in broadcasting. Although the main focus had tended to be on broadcasting aspects the Chair had been able focus the meeting on telecommunications aspects. The event had been useful as it allowed the Chair to maintain/build links with the Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Labour spokespersons in the House of Lords. The main point emerging from the conference was a deep concern about the de-regulatory aspects and the effects that these would have on the quality and range of programming.

· TAP Meeting with Lord Currie 11 December
4.6 A note of this meeting had been circulated. Members noticed the opposition from the Chair of CCE to national consumer panel committees but the (SACOT) Chair highlighted the positive proposals that the Chair of OFCOM was making to try to ensure effective consumer representation and liaison with the devolved administrations.

· BT Meeting with Sandy Walkington 12 December
4.7 The Chair and Secretary had been invited to meet Sandy Walkington, Head of Public Affairs for BT in the UK. There had been a useful exchange of views on matters of concern to each party in the Communications Bill. The Chair was pleased to learn that BT strongly supported the principle of an effective Consumer Panel and was interested to learn of BT's concerns over the inclusion of 'apparatus' and on the appeals procedure.

· CWU Broadband Dinner 12 December
4.8 The Chair attended this dinner at which the Minister reviewed the strategy and progress of broadband rollout. The topic was intensively discussed to try to get a consensus of what needed to be done but, as the Inverness seminar had revealed, there was no single perfect solution available and a range of initiatives would need to be pursued simultaneously.

· CMA Meeting 13 December
4.9 The Chair and Secretary had had one of their regular meetings with CMA (Scotland) representatives. This was primarily focused on the Communications Bill and SACOT's activities so far, the expected timetable for the Bill and what SACOT proposed to do during the remaining progress of the Bill. It was suggested that CMA should lobby parliamentarians directly if they felt there were improvements to the Bill that they wished to see incorporated.

4.10 The Chair and Secretary would be attending one of their regular meetings with the Director, BT Scotland, in February and if Members had any topics that they wished to have raised they should communicate these to the Secretary. The two items that SACOT would raise would be the Communications Bill and service standards in Scotland.

ACTION (Members)

ii. Members' Reports

· Financial Services Authority - e-Commerce Committee
4.11 Alastair Robertson reported that there had been no further meetings of this group since the last SACOT meeting.

· Communications for Business (CfB)
4.12 Alastair Robertson reported that the Committee for Business had met and considered the forthcoming change from license conditions to general conditions of entitlement. There was concern whether some operators, and more especially consumers, were aware of the implications of the change. The Chair asked whether CfB had asked quizzed Oftel on what the policing/monitoring arrangements would be and Alastair Robertson stated that CfB would be writing to the Director General on this aspect. CfB had also considered the web filtering and monitoring arrangements that were increasingly prevalent in the business sector and the need to safeguard those employees that accessed inappropriate sites entirely inadvertently. Barry Stevens highlighted that very often automatic advertisements ('pinging' screens) for other services/sites would be prompted by access to a 'trigger' site and that these are recorded even though the recipient would very probably have no interest in their content. Alastair Robertson said that he would raise this when the subject was discussed at the next CfB meeting. Alastair Robertson also reported that one Scottish based company had complained about the costs of attending Oftel meetings that were always held in London. On dispute resolution procedures, concern had been expressed that these could favour large service providers as they were in a stronger position if they protracted the process by referring the proposed resolution back to Oftel.

· Directory Enquiries Consumer Group
4.13 Alastair Robertson reported that the new services were available to the public and had received widespread publicity. The Consumer Group would monitor developments but their main interest was the wider scope of services that would become available in the future with possible purchasing of goods and services that would be paid for by applying a charge to the telephone bill. The Group was concerned that there should be adequate safeguards to ensure that the purchaser was the telephone account holder or had the authority to incur charges on the account. Alastair Robertson was concerned that consumer concerns were taken account of before commercial operators made too much progress. The Chair observed that this aspect had been of concern to both SACOT and CfB for some considerable time and suggested that he should raise it formally with Oftel. The Committee agreed this approach and added their concerns about reverse searching (accessing addresses via telephone numbers) and by-passing call bars on premium rate services through connection from a directory enquiry service.

ACTION (Chair)

· Consumer Forum on Communications
4.14 Peter Wilson had reported, when presenting his apologies for absence, that there had been no further meetings since the November SACOT meeting.

· EU Directives Policy Group
4.15 Alastair Robertson had attended a meeting of this group. It now looked likely that the market review consultation documents would not be issued before February. Alastair Robertson also reported that Courtenay Thompson, Chair of NIACT, had raised an interesting point about licensing arrangements preventing the sharing of masts that NIACT was pursuing. The Committee briefly discussed roaming arrangements and the Chair undertook to discuss these topics with the NIACT Chair to see whether SACOT should support NIACT's views. The Secretary mentioned that it had been suggested that Oftel would wish to make presentations to ACTs about ACT input to the market review consultations and he had approached Oftel in relation to this meeting. However, they were not yet ready to undertake such presentations but would be for the March meeting. The Committee agreed to put the topic on the agenda for the March meeting and asked the Secretary to make arrangements with Oftel for a representative to attend.

ACTION (Chair/Secretary)

· Comparable Performance Indicators (CPIs)
4.16 Chris Griffith and Alastair Robertson reported that they had attended a meeting convened by Oftel on this topic. Although there had been a low attendance they had found the session of interest as there was an acceptance that current CPIs were not meeting consumer needs and there was possibly a need to 're-brand and re-profile' the data which is currently available. The Committee discussed the difficulties for consumers in comparing like for like and then having to investigate pricing comparisons separately. It was suggested that links could be improved and that an analysis of site 'hits' might be of some use.

5. SECRETARY'S REPORT

· Scottish Retail Consortium Parliamentary Reception 8 January
5.1 The Secretary had attended this event at which the Consortium launched their manifesto and the Minister had spoken. The main interest to SACOT was that the Secretary had discussed telecommunications issues with a number of MSPs one of whom had asked to be added to our circulation list (Alex Fergusson MSP).

ACTION (Secretary)

5.2 Otherwise Members would be interested to know that the next meeting of ACT Secretaries would be hosted in Edinburgh on 24 January. One topic would be Oftel's response to the suggestion that the Oftel Forum should meet outside London.

5.3 Members were reminded to submit travel and allowance claim forms promptly as we neared the end of the financial year.

Topics for discussion

6. COMPLAINTS STATISTICS

6.1 The Committee then considered the latest set of complaints statistics provided by Alistair Cox of CRS, Oftel. Members noted these with interest but noted that some data from the 4th quarter of 2002 was not yet available. The Chair highlighted the significant numbers of complaints during 2002 about the standards of repair service, a topic that he would be raising at his next meeting with Bob Downes of BT Scotland. The Secretary highlighted the useful appendix which detailed significant issues, however, while it was of interest to note that CRS had met with two service providers to discuss complaints and complaints handling, there was no information as to what had happened at these meetings, what conclusions had been reached and what actions, if any, agreed. The Secretary was asked to write to Alistair Cox to thank him for the enhancements and to enquire about the outcome of the meetings.

ACTION (Secretary)

6.2 The appreciative e-mail from a Mr Peacock who was concerned about BT's Customer Service Guarantee Scheme and repair delays had been noted by the Committee. He had endorsed SACOT's efforts to obtain meaningful complaints statistics.

7. COMMUNICATIONS BILL

7.1 Members had been issued with copies of the Communications Bill which was currently undergoing its House of Commons Committee stage. Seven sittings had been held between 10 and 19 December and the Committee resumed sittings on 7 January. Progress was relatively rapid and no amendments had yet been conceded. It was clear that, given the pre-legislative scrutiny, it was intended to limit change to the minimum. The Chair, however, considered that this would be more difficult to achieve at the Lords stage and, therefore, lobbying efforts to attract support to amendments from consumer groups would be focused on peers. Otherwise, there would probably only be an injection of 'tidying' amendments from the Government.
7.2 For those aspects of the Bill that ACTs had wanted to see changed the following is the current situation:-
· That OFCOM's primary duty should relate to consumers - not achieved but duties redrafted from 7 to 4;
· Terminology muddled and needed to focus more on consumer - dealt with;
· Consumer Panel - now in Part 1 but remit still unclear;
· Issues that the Consumer Panel may consider no longer to be defined by OFCOM;
· Appointment of Consumer Panel Members by Ministers rather than OFCOM - not achieved;
· Power for Consumer Panel to set up committees - achieved;
· OFCOM may not withhold information from the Panel without reasons - not achieved; and
· Consumer Panel required to set up national committees - not achieved.

8. OFCOM

8.1 The Chair reported that when the TAP had met the Chair of OFCOM, Lord Currie, he had been impressed by his willingness to listen. In order to achieve a lean organisation it seemed likely that self-regulatory systems would be encouraged wherever possible and that some work may be contracted out. Lord Currie was anxious to establish Advisory Committees for each of the home nations, irrespective of the outcome of the push for national committees of the Consumer Panel to be statutorily required. If not statutorily required he considered that the decision on whether to establish national committees of the Consumer Panel would be a matter for the Chair of the Consumer Panel. Lord Currie expected that the statutorily required Scottish members of the Consumer Panel and Content Board would be members of a Scottish Advisory Committee that would report to the main OFCOM Board. Lord Currie appreciated that it was important that this group should not be dominated by industry representatives and he was anxious to achieve arrangements which would ensure consumer concerns could be effectively communicated to OFCOM.

8.2 The Chair explained that the consequences of the uncertainty over whether there will be statutory committees of the Consumer Panel for each home nation would prevent OFCOM preparing for their establishment in advance. This, in turn, meant there was likely to be a hiatus between the demise of Oftel and Consumer Panel arrangements in Scotland. However, there was a clause in the Bill which allowed Ministers to determine the date for closure of the ACTs on a different date from that for Oftel so it might be that ACTs would continue for a period after OFCOM came into existence until the Consumer Panel arrangements could take over. Barry Stevens observed that as SACOT member appointments expired in April 2004 that might be the furthest date.

8.3 The Secretary observed that there was a statutory requirement to maintain an OFCOM office in each home nation and that this should act as a reasonable safeguard for any non-statutory committee as there would be minimal financial savings to be achieved from its demise.

8.4 Barry Stevens reported that he had met with both his MP and MSP both of whom appeared anxious to support adequate consumer representation for Scotland. The MSP wished to be added to SACOT's circulation list.

ACTION (Secretary)

Consultation document responses for formal endorsement

9. Oftel Statement (S089/2002): "Price Assurance Standard"

DTI Consultation Document (S098/2002): "Implementing Consumer Direct"

9.1 The Committee approved these responses.

Consultation documents for discussion

10. Oftel Consultation Document (S123/2002): "Local Loop Unbundling: Co-mingling, Partitioning at BT Exchanges"

10.1 The Chair had considered this document and decided that SACOT need not respond.

Oftel Consultation Document (S126/2002): "Removing Barriers for User Representatives in Regulatory and Co-regulatory Initiatives"

10.2 The Chair felt that this was a welcome and informative policy that would aid Oftel in achieving more effective consultation but it was a pity that it had not been developed previously. Although ACTs were mentioned as consumer representative organisations he felt that it would be useful to include others with brief statements of their attributes. Alastair Robertson suggested that this might include their support arrangements. Barry Stevens was anxious that the principles should not be lost sight of in the transition to OFCOM and would be carried forward. The Chair thanked Members for their observations, which he would incorporate into the response.

ACTION (Chair)

Oftel Consultation Document (S127/2002): "Draft Oftel Management Plan 2003-04"

10.3 The Chair commented that he felt that this document generally reflected Oftel's bias at always looking at competition from the supply side rather from the point of view of the consumer. There appeared to be an underlying assumption that where there was effective competition there was no need for consumer protection arrangements. The Chair's view was that competitive markets were inherently unstable where the participants vied to achieve advantages for their own concerns and to disadvantage their competitors and there was thus always the potential for consumers to be adversely affected. There was also an assumption of consumer knowledge that was patently weak when it came to comparing prices and the quality of service from telcos. The Committee discussed Oftel's role in promoting broadband rollout and it was agreed that this needed to be less passive and that Oftel should act as a catalyst in bringing together appropriate organisations. Alastair Robertson felt that consideration now needed to be given to the segment of the population and business that would otherwise be left with no alternative to narrowband unless resources were applied. The Chair thanked Members for their contributions and asked if they had any further thoughts to communicate with him in order that they could be included in the response.

ACTION (Members/Chair)

Documents for noting

Scottish Executive: "Connecting Scotland - Making it Happen"

10.4 Members said that they had found this document useful.

11. ANY OTHER BUSINESS

11.1 Barry Stevens reported that he found the BT barometers of registered interest in broadband by exchange area misleading.
11.2 Kenneth Murray was concerned that BT should raise the limit on 'Anytime' to eliminate the automatic disconnection after 2 hours (out of a 150 hours a mont entitlement). The Chair undertook to raise this with BT at his next meeting with them.
ACTION (Chair)

11.3 The Chair was unable to attend the NIACT Conference in March but if any Members wished to take his place they should inform the Secretary who would make appropriate arrangements.

ACTION (Members/Secretary)

11.4 The Chair intended to draft SACOT's Annual Report and make arrangements to have it printed locally to ensure its prompt availability at this important time for promoting Scottish consumer protection interests. As soon as the draft was available it would be distributed to the Committee for comment.

ACTION (Chair/Secretary)

11.5 The Secretary highlighted the recent advertisement for Council Members for the Scottish Consumer Council.

12. DATE OF NEXT MEETING

13.1 Tuesday 18th March, 2003 in Edinburgh at 10.30 a.m. The Chair explained that he now had another commitment for the original date and the Committee agreed the changed date. The meeting would probably include a representative from Oftel to discuss ACT input to market reviews.